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 Get to 20 Pull-ups with This Program (Endurance)

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NGN

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PostSubject: Re: Get to 20 Pull-ups with This Program (Endurance)   Fri Aug 24, 2012 1:07 pm


Why is it so much easier to do chins vs pulls.

IMO chins are a better movement for building the lats and arms. I think this because the palms facing during the pulls and the elbows pushing down from in front to straight back is a more efficient movement which allows the lats, delts, and biceps to work together at their most powerful positions. That means that during chins more muscle fibers are firing which can then stimulate a bigger adaption response if done correctly with the proper resistance.

I started to ignore chins after joining this forum because of the heavy focus here on pull ups.

Im glad that you posted this routine because I had nearly forgotten about them.
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Jono



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PostSubject: Re: Get to 20 Pull-ups with This Program (Endurance)   Fri Aug 24, 2012 1:15 pm

I like chin-ups too. I find that my endurance at pull-ups (23) is better than chin-ups (19), but my max weighted chin-up (55kg) is better than my pull-up (40kg).

My idea is that the pull-up grip puts your lats in a mechanically better position, whereas the chin-ups don't. However, chin-ups are easier because you get more help from the biceps, meaning the total combined muscle help (for force output) is greater.

But with high reps, biceps will tire out early as they're a smaller muscle group relative to lats, so endurance is harder with them, and you don't get to use your lats as well as you can with pull-up grip.

What do you think?

No problem!
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NGN

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PostSubject: Re: Get to 20 Pull-ups with This Program (Endurance)   Fri Aug 24, 2012 1:22 pm

reincarnate100 wrote:
I like chin-ups too. I find that my endurance at pull-ups (23) is better than chin-ups (19), but my max weighted chin-up (55kg) is better than my pull-up (40kg).

My idea is that the pull-up grip puts your lats in a mechanically better position, whereas the chin-ups don't. However, chin-ups are easier because you get more help from the biceps, meaning the total muscle help is greater.

But with high reps, biceps will tire out early as they're a smaller muscle group relative to lats, so endurance is harder with them.

No problem!

huh...I never thought of it that way. You may be right. I always felt my lats better during the chin movement and upper back during the pull up. Everyone is different though and it could be that way because my mind is focusing the lats better during the chins.....your numbers totally back your hypothesis though.
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Jono



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PostSubject: Re: Get to 20 Pull-ups with This Program (Endurance)   Fri Aug 24, 2012 3:39 pm

NGNFitness wrote:
reincarnate100 wrote:
I like chin-ups too. I find that my endurance at pull-ups (23) is better than chin-ups (19), but my max weighted chin-up (55kg) is better than my pull-up (40kg).

My idea is that the pull-up grip puts your lats in a mechanically better position, whereas the chin-ups don't. However, chin-ups are easier because you get more help from the biceps, meaning the total muscle help is greater.

But with high reps, biceps will tire out early as they're a smaller muscle group relative to lats, so endurance is harder with them.

No problem!

huh...I never thought of it that way. You may be right. I always felt my lats better during the chin movement and upper back during the pull up. Everyone is different though and it could be that way because my mind is focusing the lats better during the chins.....your numbers totally back your hypothesis though.

I'm only guessing haha. The people in the extreme pull ups crew have crazy weighted pull-up maxes, but their chin-up maxes are lower! I think it also depends which one you do the most. Last year when all I did was chin-ups I think I was at 15 chin-ups and 12 pull-ups
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Sosna

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PostSubject: Re: Get to 20 Pull-ups with This Program (Endurance)   Fri Aug 24, 2012 8:53 pm

I only did chin-ups when I was younger and obviously found them easier. My maxes back then were around 16 chinups and 12 pull-ups. However I now realise that's because I had strong biceps but a very underdeveloped back. My maxes right now are pull-ups 28, chin-ups 20 maybe? not tried in along time.

Pull-ups use much more of your back which is a huge group of muscles compared with chin-ups which focus more on biceps.

In my opinion if a person has developed their optimum max with pull-ups this will always be greater than if they were to do so with chin-ups. This is just purely based on the difference in muscle groups activated and their potential moving power.

Having said that I have definitely been neglecting chin-ups since starting the Bar-barian training and I'll have to start switching up my grips again. Hopefully this simple change will open up a few forgotten alleyways of strength.
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PostSubject: Re: Get to 20 Pull-ups with This Program (Endurance)   Sat Aug 25, 2012 11:38 am

Sosna,

Great post! I almost agree with you now....except where you say the chin is bicep focused. IMO the focus of the chin be it biceps or lats is purely dependent on the practice and execution of the exercise.

Bare with me...this is a little experiment. Try sitting at a table or desk. lean forward and place your elbow on the table with your tricep facing down and palm facing you just like a chin up. Now try and pull your elbow back by pushing it through the table. Feel that lat and back contraction? Now compare the contraction in your back vs your bicep. That is how I do my chins. I imagine my hands and forearms as hooks that are attached to the bar focusing on the elbows pushing down helping me focus my lats to dominate the exercise.
Now that I do that my biceps are basically in a supporting roll.

Now I'm not saying I disagree with the rest of your post regarding how powerful an exercise the Pullup is for the back. I just think chins if done properly could be considered an exercise of equal importance.
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PostSubject: Re: Get to 20 Pull-ups with This Program (Endurance)   Sat Aug 25, 2012 4:00 pm

Thanks for the reply NGNFitness

Just to clarify, I don't regard the Pull-up as a greater exercise than the chin-up but for lat development I think the Pull-up is better.

Anyway to reply to the experiment, I see exactly what you are getting at here and I do feel the contraction however I only think it represents the portion of the the chin-up from maybe 80 degrees and upwards. From deadhang to 90 degrees is the portion of the chin-up where biceps have the most involvement and then the back takes over more towards lockout I believe. If your going Chest to bar the lat involvement at the top is immense for sure. However is we are talking about reps here most people will be going chin to bar which takes out a lot of that lat contraction at the top.

To sum up my view on chin-ups and Pull-ups.

Pull-ups - use lats and biceps throughout the whole movement but I believe a greater stress is on the lats.

Chin-ups - From deadhang to 90 degrees although both biceps and lats are both being used the focus is more on the bicep. From point at which you stop bending your arms at the elbows and start pulling your arms down by your sides then I believe this is where the lats come into play for this movement. I think this roughly happens when your arms are at 90 degrees.

I hope this may help you see what I'm getting at, always good to have a discussion like this as it makes you really look at things in great detail and in this case break the movement down step by step.

Cheers

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NGN

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PostSubject: Re: Get to 20 Pull-ups with This Program (Endurance)   Sat Aug 25, 2012 5:38 pm

I see your point of view..... but by using focus on lats and imagining forearm and hands as merely hooks, starting the chin movement by arching the back, pulling shoulders down and back, using the pushing elbow technique, and pulling to chest, the chin up can be a lat focused movement during the entire range of motion. Try it just like that and see what you think.

And yes I am enjoying this discussion a great deal and I guess we can agree to disagree on some of the finer points.

Cheers. Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Get to 20 Pull-ups with This Program (Endurance)   Sun Aug 26, 2012 5:21 pm

starting this program tomorrow, my pull up max is 6 maybe 7 good form lets see how it goes
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PostSubject: Re: Get to 20 Pull-ups with This Program (Endurance)   Sat Sep 01, 2012 6:25 am

Thank you for the program! Gonna start today! Razz
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PostSubject: Re: Get to 20 Pull-ups with This Program (Endurance)   Sat Sep 15, 2012 7:34 pm

Thanks, i'm stuck at 13, 14 pull ups. I'll try this tomorrow.

EDIT: Can we do dips after this training ?


Last edited by Shirohige on Sun Sep 16, 2012 5:19 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Digit

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PostSubject: Re: Get to 20 Pull-ups with This Program (Endurance)   Sun Sep 16, 2012 10:23 am

Hey guys what do u think if lets say......
Right now now i can do 13 good ROM pulls ups.
If i start the program from the beginning and.....
First i use a weight i can do 6 pulls to start the set finish it and then get it off and do it again BW.
Do u think is this going to be good idea or too much for the muscle ????
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NGN

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PostSubject: Re: Get to 20 Pull-ups with This Program (Endurance)   Wed Sep 19, 2012 2:05 am

Digit wrote:
Hey guys what do u think if lets say......
Right now now i can do 13 good ROM pulls ups.
If i start the program from the beginning and.....
First i use a weight i can do 6 pulls to start the set finish it and then get it off and do it again BW.
Do u think is this going to be good idea or too much for the muscle ????

It would be way to much for me but I cant say for you. If you're at 13 you can start at level 2. I opted to start level1 with weight. Also did 5 sets of GTG with 50lbs today of 2 reps and hopefully that will help get me past a sticking point where I have fail 2 workouts in a row. There were other issues that hindered the progress that I have addressed though.
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PostSubject: Re: Get to 20 Pull-ups with This Program (Endurance)   Wed Sep 19, 2012 2:08 am

Shirohige wrote:
Thanks, i'm stuck at 13, 14 pull ups. I'll try this tomorrow.

EDIT: Can we do dips after this training ?


I have been using the program for pulls and dips for a few weeks now and love it. its in my log
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PostSubject: Re: Get to 20 Pull-ups with This Program (Endurance)   Thu Sep 20, 2012 7:12 pm

will this build muscle too or just endurance??
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NGN

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PostSubject: Re: Get to 20 Pull-ups with This Program (Endurance)   Thu Sep 20, 2012 7:42 pm

yes it will build muscle...lots of it if you eat right and get enough sleep.

if you notice when graduating the program the sets dont go over 10 reps. I think the ideal # of reps for muscle building is in the 5-12 range.

I dont know if this program is the best for endurance but I sure enjoy doing it and the way it progresses is really good.
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PostSubject: Re: Get to 20 Pull-ups with This Program (Endurance)   Wed Oct 03, 2012 4:38 pm

Hi, I'm stuck to the third week day 2. I was suposed to do 9-10-8-7-5 but I did 9-10-8-7-4 the first attempt and 9-10-7-7-5 the second. What am I supposed to do ?

Thanks.
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PostSubject: Re: Get to 20 Pull-ups with This Program (Endurance)   Wed Oct 03, 2012 5:08 pm

Do it again til you hit the numbers. It's not a race.If you go to the next day before your ready you could get stuck there too.
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PostSubject: Re: Get to 20 Pull-ups with This Program (Endurance)   Thu Oct 11, 2012 7:06 pm

Here is a google docs file if you wanted to print it out.

Im loving the program so far.
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PostSubject: Re: Get to 20 Pull-ups with This Program (Endurance)   Thu Oct 11, 2012 10:23 pm

can i use this program for dips too?
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NGN

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PostSubject: Re: Get to 20 Pull-ups with This Program (Endurance)   Thu Oct 11, 2012 10:57 pm

Vibe95 wrote:
can i use this program for dips too?

For sure. I completed level 2 with 35lbs and am now doing it with 50.
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PostSubject: Re: Get to 20 Pull-ups with This Program (Endurance)   Fri Oct 12, 2012 7:06 am

Man dont u change the way u do dips right ???? I mean for pull it is pull ups and chin ups. For dips you dont change from dips to bar dips or something ..... Thnx for the google doc BTW !!! Train hard outhere!
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PostSubject: Re: Get to 20 Pull-ups with This Program (Endurance)   Fri Oct 12, 2012 9:54 am

Digit wrote:
Man dont u change the way u do dips right ???? I mean for pull it is pull ups and chin ups. For dips you dont change from dips to bar dips or something ..... Thnx for the google doc BTW !!! Train hard outhere!


Dude!!!freakin excellent idea. I have been just doin parallel bar dips and just using it as a guide to increase reps per workout.

Going from parallel bar to straight bar dips is a great idea...I think. I will give it a shot. I dont do alot of straight bar dips and am thinking I will be a bit weaker on those than parallel bar dips. hopefully there isnt too much of a difference.

Awesome! love exchange of ideas.
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PostSubject: Re: Get to 20 Pull-ups with This Program (Endurance)   Fri Oct 12, 2012 4:27 pm

HAHAHAHA cheers mate !!! Well i will start using the program in 2 weeks and ofcourse i must make dips and i was thinking about it . First Dips and after bar dips. Different exercise. Also i am thinking about the push up variation as well so i can increase all the numbs in the basics but lets say that if push ups are easier what do u think if u can use a weight so u can make only thr 5-11 of them as the program says or do the program but with double or triple numbers????
I see a lot of experimentation in the coming days X D !!!!
Train hard out there !!!!!
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PostSubject: Re: Get to 20 Pull-ups with This Program (Endurance)   Fri Oct 12, 2012 4:46 pm

YEAH! pushups with a freakin VW on your back. haha
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