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ratstroke



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PostSubject: Help With Mass   Sat Jun 30, 2012 1:00 am

Hi Forum,
I know everybody will just tell me to use the search function,however I did and i believe its best if I just straight up ask.
I am currently following a modified version of the Convict Conditioning program, its gotten a lot of s**t from a lot of people for some exercises, however i believe the core is good enough and if it werent for that book i wouldnt be here so...
6 months into training I dont feel like Ive made lots of gains body wise, I mean sure, I can do loads more pushups and proper pullups now,but strength is not my point, I want to also get the big muscles. On my other post I wrote my stats to where I could remember.
I know my diet has a lot to do with it,it was consistent all around till the beginning of June,however that will get back in track soon. Nevertheless it feels like Im doing something wrong, I dont know why though, Im progressing adequately from each exercise, and to tell the truth its only been 3 weeks since i have started my dead hang pullups.
So Im thinking its either me being frustrated over nothing and needing some more time, or i dont have a clue.
Its gotten to the point where Im actually starting to take Creatine in hope of getting bigger, and also I have tried High Volume training and I absolutely hate it (What i would do was, 5 sets of pushups with 60 seconds rest etc) so please back off that.
Please do drop in everything you can to help me out Smile
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K4lisPeluru

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PostSubject: Re: Help With Mass   Sat Jun 30, 2012 2:12 am

i'll try to keep it as simple as possible. different ppl respond to diff type of training. however, what im about to share is what considered to be effective in general.

mass = bodybuild = stimulate muscle growth = hypertrophy training

how to apply this method of training? look back at the bodybuilding techniques except you are using bodyweight (BW) as resistance rather than weights.

few factors involved in hypertrophy training.
1. time under tension, the amount of intensity you put on the muscle when training at a certain period of time during the contracting and releasing phase (TUT) - 4-12 secs
2. reps - 8-12 reps
3. sets - 2-3
4. rest 60-90 secs between sets
5. amount of exercise for the muscle group - 1-2

aight now lets apply this. for example, you wanna build some size on your back/lets so you'd be using pullups (one of the best back exercises)

1. TUT = 7 secs
take 3 secs to pull to top position, 1 sec pause at top position, and then slowly release back to bottom position in 3 secs
3+1+3 = 7 secs
2. do it for 8 reps
3. for 3 sets
4. rest 60 secs between sets
5. after doing pullups, you can add inverted rows or chin ups after and apply the same technique

it might sound not much of a work, but once u apply TUT strictly, you'd be feeling your muscles tearing and working.

...

now after you have stimulated your muscle after training, its time to feed them. theres a saying goes like - you dont build muscle in the gym, you build it outside.
so it goes back to your diet and thats a different story. hope this helps.
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mrpullup2

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PostSubject: Re: Help With Mass   Sat Jun 30, 2012 11:17 am

A lot of people use volume, and for me at least, volume has always buitl up my size. I found alternating my strength training and volume training is the best way. Strength is needed for everything--endurance, explosiveness, and SIZE.
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ironloo

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PostSubject: Re: Help With Mass   Sat Jun 30, 2012 3:29 pm

You need to add high stress exercises into the picture and do them consistently for years, like heavy dead lifts, weighted ring push ups, weighted dips, Squats, weighted pull ups, weighted rows, weighted lunges, weighted chin ups, sprints, farmer walks, handstand push ups to name a few after you built your basics strength already. Do all types of training, high volume w/high reps, low volume low reps heavy weight, statics, pyramids, traditional sets this is basic for someone who trains calisthenics. Takes time. Eat right, train hard, sleep well, repeat for years & years not months everyone is genetically different. For now short term to make it easier rather than thinking about mass train for performance up your strength,endurance,power weekly while eating healthy. Hope this helps you no shortcuts other than hard work daily, correct diet, consistent patience.
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blue hefner

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PostSubject: Re: Help With Mass   Sat Jun 30, 2012 5:01 pm

What if you have no acces to weights, I mean heavy weights for deadlifts,squats...?
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ironloo

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PostSubject: Re: Help With Mass   Sat Jun 30, 2012 5:11 pm

Lift logs,stones,trees, awkward objects, fill your back pack with stones,find hills to sprint along with calisthenics.

Some of my best workouts include no weights check my link to see what i mean. Workout anywhere you don't need a gym or weights you can find them though.My point is whatever you do make it difficult daily.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlqOfXnixcM
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ratstroke



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PostSubject: Re: Help With Mass   Sat Jun 30, 2012 8:44 pm

K4lisPeluru wrote:
i'll try to keep it as simple as possible. different ppl respond to diff type of training. however, what im about to share is what considered to be effective in general.

mass = bodybuild = stimulate muscle growth = hypertrophy training

how to apply this method of training? look back at the bodybuilding techniques except you are using bodyweight (BW) as resistance rather than weights.

few factors involved in hypertrophy training.
1. time under tension, the amount of intensity you put on the muscle when training at a certain period of time during the contracting and releasing phase (TUT) - 4-12 secs
2. reps - 8-12 reps
3. sets - 2-3
4. rest 60-90 secs between sets
5. amount of exercise for the muscle group - 1-2

aight now lets apply this. for example, you wanna build some size on your back/lets so you'd be using pullups (one of the best back exercises)

1. TUT = 7 secs
take 3 secs to pull to top position, 1 sec pause at top position, and then slowly release back to bottom position in 3 secs
3+1+3 = 7 secs
2. do it for 8 reps
3. for 3 sets
4. rest 60 secs between sets
5. after doing pullups, you can add inverted rows or chin ups after and apply the same technique

it might sound not much of a work, but once u apply TUT strictly, you'd be feeling your muscles tearing and working.

...

now after you have stimulated your muscle after training, its time to feed them. theres a saying goes like - you dont build muscle in the gym, you build it outside.
so it goes back to your diet and thats a different story. hope this helps.

Wow thanks for that massive reply, Ill see into increasing the length of my pullups to make them even harder. How do you keep track of how long you take more or less?
Also how do you know how long your TUT should be? Should i just guess on how im responding to slow variants of pushups/pulls etc and then just keep adjusting?

Does this look good as a sample workout ?

Mondays
Dips
Pushups
Squats

It has two exercises for Triceps and Pecs except for legs which are only Squats.

I guess I can also add variants to the pushups such as Wide and Chair pushups on the same workout.

Thanks
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ratstroke



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PostSubject: Re: Help With Mass   Sat Jun 30, 2012 9:07 pm

Yeah I know Volume training is good for some however i really dont like it.

@Ironloo thanks for all the advise, I love that you gave me some great exercises Smile
I am already working on Endurance and overall strength etc however i wanted some tips for some hypertrophy for em now haha.
I get that it takes years to develop a great level of strength as well as an awesome body however i just dont think its fair compared to guys who can go to a gym and get ripped overnight.
The video looks great,you must be somewhere fun. You guys look waaay ripped,how long have you been doing this?

Thanks everybody
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Vibe95



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PostSubject: Re: Help With Mass   Sat Jun 30, 2012 10:42 pm

loo is insanely ripped
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K4lisPeluru

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PostSubject: Re: Help With Mass   Sat Jun 30, 2012 11:44 pm

the sample looks great.

like i mentioned earlier, hypertrophy exercises should have TUT of 4-12 secs. if pullups are really easy for you try do it for TUT of 12 secs each rep

4 secs pull to the top, 4 secs pause at top position, 4 secs to bottom position for every single rep.

now when you can complete these with 3 sets and rest no longer than 60 secs between set. you can start adding weights (2.5kg). and then repeat the same thing.

the training is only to stimulate growth, after that you have to eat like beast around 1-2 hours later and then thats where the bodybuild takes place.
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Fi

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PostSubject: Re: Help With Mass   Sun Jul 01, 2012 4:43 pm

What is your diet like? That's a big part of gaining mass. Hw much protein are you eating? What are your meals like? Protein shakes? Etc etc.
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ratstroke



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PostSubject: Re: Help With Mass   Sun Jul 01, 2012 9:11 pm

Fi wrote:
What is your diet like? That's a big part of gaining mass. Hw much protein are you eating? What are your meals like? Protein shakes? Etc etc.

These are the only things i take as of supplements


Eat a lot of meat and fish,2 times a day I have proper food and once i take that shake thing, however this month ive been slacking off since i was alone at home and got a bit lazy,soon ill get back to my mums cooking Smile
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Fi

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PostSubject: Re: Help With Mass   Mon Jul 02, 2012 3:44 am

Supplements are just that - things to supplement your diet with. What's the rest of it like?

You need to eat A LOT of protein (and good food generally) to gain, certainly if you're doing heavy training.

I shoot for around 2g protein per kg of weight, so around 120 a day. You shouldn't really be having more than one shake a day, so will need to be pretty careful to get that from other sources - PB, milk, eggs, fish, cows etc. Also make sure you are eating the right carbs - slow release, unprocessed - at the right times - after working out.

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Digit

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PostSubject: Re: Help With Mass   Mon Jul 02, 2012 5:26 am

I personally dont use supplaments . Well i used to go to the gym for about 7 months and after i found out about calisthenics i stoped going. It really depends
from your diet if u want mass and of course its about genetics. I saw guys that they trained like s**t and after the workout they went to bed O_o and they coudln't understand
why they didnt have any mass on they body . Dont worry for the progress just be consistent!!! I took me a lot of time to get used to the exercises
but after i saw progress i was really pumped up. I didnt really care for mass or something i just trained and mass came . Before 2 weeks i noticed that my back has grown .
According food i never measuremy protein intake. I just ate a lot of good food ! Fresh Eggs meat and goat milk here in the village are something u cant lost : D /

Try to use a lot of varations of sets and reps
Right now i start some one arm chin negatives and after that i start doing:
3x8 Pull Ups
3x8 Chins and in the end some static hold and my biceps are sore as hell the next day.
Next time am gonna add some weight .
High Volume also helped with mass i think because i ve been using it a lot.
Check also this and u will see they use similar programs in bodybuilding X D and with tempo as Kalispeluru said.

http://www.simplyshredded.com/german-volume-training-a-new-look-at-an-old-way-to-build-mass-strength.html

Someone told that mass comes after 6 months of training. I dont know i this is true but dont care after all.
Train Hard !!!
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ratstroke



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PostSubject: Re: Help With Mass   Mon Jul 02, 2012 7:50 am

@Fi
I did not realise that i would haveto take in that much protein,ill try to up that with some eggs and protein rich sources. How much would Peanut Butter contribute to this?
Thanks anyways
@Digit
So food is about most of the bodybuilding, didnt take it all that seriously until you gave that example.
About the high volume, I might just give it a try,however how should i use it? 10 sets like in that article or just low rest times? Im also a bit wiery with using High Volume because CC is quite against it,however ill give it a shot once i get my head around it.
6 Months would be awesome, ive been doing this since December so i should be ripped now lol.

Dont get me wrong, one can see that im in shape and all,however i dont look big, i think a lot of people think of me as thin.
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blue hefner

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PostSubject: Re: Help With Mass   Mon Jul 02, 2012 10:13 am

Protein is a big myth. Shoot for 0.6x BW in pounds.
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Vibe95



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PostSubject: Re: Help With Mass   Mon Jul 02, 2012 11:25 pm

@Fi damnnn u take a lot of protein
btw what are some foods that i can eat to get more protein? i dnt wanna take any protein supplements
so far i eat things like eggs, various fish, meat like chicken pork but not so much beef cuz my father doesnt eat beef O_o, veggies and fruit
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blue hefner

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PostSubject: Re: Help With Mass   Tue Jul 03, 2012 5:25 am

@ Vibe95

You probably get enough protein, eating healthy is the number 1 thing.
Your already eating veggies&fruit, so thats good.

- Eggs
- Tuna/salmon/etc.
- Chicken
- Nuts ( almonds,walnuts,peanuts)
- Milk
- Peanutbutter
- Meat

Tofu (1/2 cup) 10 grams protein
Lentils (1/2 cup) 9 grams protein
Beans, especially black, kidney, and lima (1/2 cup) 6-7 grams protein
Artichokes (1 medium) 10 grams protein
Chick peas (1/2 cup) 6 grams protein

Other vegetables that rank high in protein per calorie are: broccoli, spinach, brussel sprouts, kale, peas, asparagus, and beet greens.




A good read, http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/29/healthy-food-healthiest-list_n_1636409.html?ncid=wsc-huffpost-cards-headline&utm_hp_ref=fb&src=sp&comm_ref=false


Just do some research, protein is a big myth, 0.5x your bw is enough.
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Fi

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PostSubject: Re: Help With Mass   Tue Jul 03, 2012 11:21 am

blue hefner wrote:
Protein is a big myth. Shoot for 0.6x BW in pounds.
blue hefner wrote:
Just do some research, protein is a big myth, 0.5x your bw is enough.

OK, I'm calling you out - what is the evidence for this statement?

Because if you speak to any serious strength trainer, they will say to priortise protein consumption for muscle growth (and of course to eat enough proper food all-round). Here are some links for you to review:

The legendary Charles Poliquin advocates high protein consumption

So does Mark Ripptoe, author of the famous book Starting Strength

If you follow the LeanGains protocol it will involve working out your macros and prioritising protein consumption before making sure you hit the rest of your figures.

Mark Sisson, Primal diet guru recommends 1g per lb of bodyweight

The Bodybuilding.com protein calculator (the website that is probably the most popular strength training site in the world) says that I should be eating at least 132 and up to 200g a day to gain mass (and strength)

And just for good measure, check out this excellent post on Gymnastic Bodies about pre- and post- WO nutrition.

Whilst you could be a vegan and still be strong, if you want to gain mass you will need to eat lots of protein, lots of good quality carbs and some fat.

If you have strong evidence to support the fact that you only need 0.5g per BW in lb, then please - let's see it. (Not least because it would save me a fortune in food tongue )
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csaba

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PostSubject: Re: Help With Mass   Tue Jul 03, 2012 11:41 am

my personal experience is that i've seen no difference in gains on a vegan diet between periods (months) of high protein intake and periods (months) of doing nothing special to get extra protein. my experience is that very high protein requirements are largely a myth, at least for my body.

just work consistently for years while eating and resting well.
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Wracko



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PostSubject: Re: Help With Mass   Tue Jul 03, 2012 1:31 pm

Read Brad Pilon - How Much Protein ..
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Fi

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PostSubject: Re: Help With Mass   Tue Jul 03, 2012 1:42 pm

Wracko wrote:
Read Brad Pilon - How Much Protein ..

What, this article?

Where Brad says:

"It seems that 60ish grams of protein per day is enough to maintain muscularity in most people, while higher amounts up to 120 gram per day may increase the speed of muscle gain during periods of muscle hypertrophy.

At this point it seems that all protein recommendations may be correct in the right circumstances with the right people."

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blue hefner

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PostSubject: Re: Help With Mass   Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:23 pm

I got better evidence yet I cant find the link atm Im @ a apple''tablet''.
Maybe you know these links, just to give you a idea why I said that protein is a big myth.


http://www.theiflife.com/how-much-protein-per-day-build-muscle/
^ Read everything.

http://www.pcrm.org/search/?cid=251

Btw, 2nd link talks too much about ''vegans'', Im not a vegan if you thought that... I love MEAT!

http://johnalvino.com/how-much-protein-do-i-need-to-build-muscle/

http://www.juicing-for-health.com/ - good info here about fruits&veggies and their benefits, really helpful site Wink.


I just believe that high intake of protein isn't necessary, it's just the industry that wants to sell their ''protein shakes''.
That's just what I believe, do what the... you wanna do its your choice hehe Smile.
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ratstroke



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PostSubject: Re: Help With Mass   Tue Jul 03, 2012 5:34 pm

Fi wrote:

OK, I'm calling you out - what is the evidence for this statement?




You might want to check what CC 2 says about protein;not necessarily true but worth a thought
Quote :


Protein overload
If you still don’t believe that high protein diets are unnecessary, think about a few examples from nature.
Infants require more growth material—proportionately—than even the biggest bodybuilders. In its first five months of life, a human baby doubles its size. (No bodybuilder, no matter how gifted or drugged up, could double his size in five months!) So you would assume that babies require (again, proportionately) high protein diets for all this growth, right? Nah. Mother’s milk contains less than five percent protein.
Meditate on that for a second. When humans really need to grow, nature presents us with a diet that’s less than five percent protein. That’s all it takes for a baby to actualize that phenomenal growth spurt.
Compare this with cow’s milk. In contrast to human milk, cow’s milk contains around fifteen percent protein. Why so much more? Because whereas human babies double their weight in less than half a year, calves double their weight in just forty-five days. Cows have a lot of growing to do. Healthy human males grow to an average weight of 190 pounds, but bulls grow to twenty-five hundred pounds, and more.* The take-home message? Cow’s milk has far, far more protein and growth material in it than a human being could ever need.
*For you protein fiends out there, it’s worth noting that bulls—like gorillas, elephants and most other truly massive mammals— are herbivores. They easily sustain huge amounts of muscle mass by eating low protein diets.


A bull does most of its growing on plain old milk. No protein powders!


So what are bodybuilders told to do with their milk? Put protein powders in it! Putting protein or whey in cow’s milk is ridiculous. It’s like adding sugar to rock candy.
What’s worse is that supplement companies are constantly trying to outdo each other’s num- bers. A lot of protein shakes on the market now have more than fifty grams of protein per serving, when mixed up. Babies doubling their weight in a few months need a diet of less than five percent protein. But many modern bodybuilders have diets that are forty percent protein—and more! Why? All that extra protein can’t be utilized by the body. But this huge intake has to be metabo- lized anyways, and that presents a strain on the kidneys.
Don’t get me wrong. I’m not advocating low protein. By all means, enjoy some milk, eggs, cheese, seafood or a nice steak every single day. I love protein foods, and they form part of a healthy, satisfying diet. But this super-high protein craze has totally gotten out of hand. Eating muscle (protein) to gain muscle won’t work. That’s not science—it’s thinking by analogy. That’s the same kind of primitive thinking going through a savage’s brain when he eats his opponent’s heart to gain his courage!
To build solid muscle, you don’t require large amounts of protein—the protein found in the average diet is more than enough to do the job.
So why do these stupid ideas get splashed across the pages of virtually every fitness magazine and website across America? Well, the answer my friend is that nine times out of ten, it’s these magazines and websites that are selling the protein supplements somewhere along the line.
Don’t believe anything you read written by anybody who’s trying to sell you something. If you want to gain lean muscle and strength, you can do it easily by following the prison diet—three square meals a day.

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Digit

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PostSubject: Re: Help With Mass   Wed Jul 04, 2012 6:11 am

All people used to say to me i was chubby ....... and it was true thats why i started working out .Just kidding man. I dont really care what others say. High Volume low rest CC everything is different but lets say that i start high volume with 30 sec rest in the first week. Next week i will try to drop the rest . Lets say u can do 5 reps for 10 sets of push ups with 10 sec rest . Next time try to increase the reps so the sets are drop down. So u must keep the same reps and increase the sets and that goes on. CC is another way of working out. I haven't tested yet but it might work with u.
The article i sent u is so u can have an idea how u can use the high volume train. It is different because in the gym u can adjust weight to finish the whole workout with 10 sets. When u use your body weight it is a bit different and more difficult XD.
Train hard and dont care about mass and bla bla bla. It depends from your body type .
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